A brilliant thriller about the “world's oldest patriarchy”

interview

Director Edward Berger won four Oscars for “What's New in the West.” Now follows him in the papal election crime thriller “Conclave.”

Tobias Sedelmaier/ch media

Edward Berger shot European material in an American way: powerfully, with a feel for big images and moments. In 2023, he took Hollywood by storm with Nothing New in the West . In the end, it won four Oscars out of nine nominations, a record for a German film. Now there's another novel adaptation, Conclave , based on the best-selling book by Robert Harris. The Austrian-Swiss director has successfully transformed the fictional papal election ceremony into a murderous suspense thriller. We spoke with Berger at the Zurich Film Festival.

Mr. Berger, you once said that the most important question you ask yourself when making a new movie is: Why am I making this movie? So: Why is Nothing New in the West followed by a thriller about the unusual topic of a papal election?
Edward Berger: First of all, Robert Harris' original novel is indeed a great thriller! Our screenwriter Peter Straughan's scripts always have a deeper meaning, a second level. In this case, it's the inner journey that Ralph Fiennes takes as Cardinal Lawrence, a journey of emotional and intellectual doubt: about his faith, about the meaning of life, about being a Cardinal. The Cardinal's doubts. Eventually he found relief and life became easier.

How well do you identify with this development?
Yes, because doubt is the driving factor in my life: Why should I make the next movie? What do I want to say? Is the camera position correct? You keep asking yourself all this, after all filmmaking is not a natural science. We don't know exactly how to do that, and we have to find out again in every movie.

In any case, the difference between the powerful image of the Church and the cardinal's personal weaknesses becomes apparent in the film…
I think it's important to show the cardinals as people: they have phones, they smoke. The pope was put in an ambulance in a plastic body bag, and he ended up just like you and me. I want the cardinals to recognize their doubts, their sins, their mistakes. This makes them approachable and we understand them and feel sad when they fail.

The man in the white hood is definitely not a chef.Picture: www.imago-images.de

In the afterword to his thriller, Robert Harris thanks church representatives for their help with the research. What is your level of cooperation with the Vatican?
There is a white line in St. Peter's Square and commercial photography is not allowed behind the white line. So we had to build the Sistine Chapel in Cinecitta di Roma. But we met the Cardinal. Of course, they told us nothing about the secret meetings—which was not allowed—but about their beliefs and professions. We had religious advisors on site, including a wonderful religious teacher, an expert in conclave procedures: how do you hold your hand, how do you vote on earth? Of course, we can't know everything because the door is locked and the vow of silence cannot be broken. But ultimately it's not that important to me because what I love about film is that you can create reality with it. Everything doesn't always have to be true or authentic. Movies are always a manipulated, manufactured truth – especially when it seems realistic.

Usually, umbrella groves in movies are black, but in the Vatican, heavenly white is preferred.Picture: www.imago-images.de

Ralph Fiennes is known for frequently playing villains. Why is he used here as an identifying figure to argue against this?
I woke up one morning and thought: Ralph has to play this guy! He is a man who invites us in, whether he plays evil or good. His figure is in the seventh row, but he is the manager in charge of organization. He doesn't talk much, but he hears a lot. It's important that someone can help us understand what's on your mind – Ralph can do that.

The key question is: How do you feel about your faith?
I'm a Protestant and go to church with my kids at most once a year at Christmas. In a sense of tradition, more for historical reasons than religious reasons. But when I think about it, we have no churches, no temples, no synagogues or mosques – what else do we have? Then we lose a large part of our roots and origins. No matter where you come from, religion is an important part of our identity.

A fundamental question the Catholic Church must face, and to which the Conclave offers a surprising answer: Should it continue to position itself as a recalcitrant antithesis to the spirit of the times, or should it open itself up to progressive endeavors?
I am not a theologian, nor do I consider it my job to help determine religious direction. But one of the reasons I made this film is this: The Catholic Church is the oldest patriarchy in the world and remains more extreme than many other institutions. Women were effectively excluded. For me, progress is always important. By the end of the film, the audience can imagine that the future will be different.

Ralph Fiennes (red), it's said we can read his mind.Image: trapezoid

The Oscars are coming up in March, and “Conclave” will almost certainly be a part of it again. Are you looking forward to it?
Interestingly, throughout the preparation of Conclave, I had to promote Nothing New in the West. I almost regretted it at first, I always wished I had more time to focus on one thing. But then I realized: I had already chosen my next film, and it was an incredible relief. So I don't have to go to the Oscars – and win something – and suddenly there's this pressure of, oh my gosh, what do I do next? I'm going to keep going regardless of whether I get an Oscar or not. That's it now, I'm not thinking about the awards show next March, but I'm doing other films.

You've already shot your next “Song of the Little Players.” There's talk in the tabloids now about you possibly being the next James Bond director, but you've really kept it down…
In the tabloids, nothing is always true. I can say this unequivocally: nothing, no discussion. Who wouldn't want to play James Bond? I grew up with this character and loved it. It would be an incredible honor to work on a Bond film. But there are no plans for this yet.

Conclave is now in cinemas.

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